Dept. of Sometimes My Brain Won't Stop When It Should

[kaffy_r]

Things I have Done and Thought Lately

(Or, Five Things Make a Post)

In no particular order:

• I've been thinking about the characters I tend to like in my media fandoms.  I realize that, if there's a female character that large numbers of fans don't like (Gwen Cooper, River Song), I'm very apt to like them. It even extends to shows where I haven't entered the fandom (a couple of police procedural shows where I like female characters who have replaced earlier female characters; in those cases, apparently I am liking the less popular character.)  If there's a male character that large numbers do like, (Ianto Jones, the Tenth Doctor) I tend to find them only occasionally inspiring. This is not cause and effect, obviously; nor is it proof of my taste versus the world's taste (my finer self dutifully rejects the misapprehension my unworthy self has in that regard.) Still, it makes me wonder what I see in characters, or what in my personality draws me to characters or makes them bore me, as opposed to what others see in those characters, or what in resonates with them. In my own case, I don't think it's necessarily the characters themselves, but how I interpret them, what stories I tell myself about them, my internal monologue about them. It probably also has to do with whether I think the actor or actress is doing what I consider a good or bad job, and whether I find the writing for the character boring or compelling. And I suspect that my perception of the writing is more powerful than the writing itself (although that could arguably be said of anyone's reaction to writing, except that I'm leery of such completely subjectivist interpretations.) I'll also point out that my admiration or love for controversial characters doesn't mean I don't like popular characters, because I do (Rose Tyler, Donna Noble, Sarah Jane Smith, Romana,) so it can't simply be a cranky contrariness. Or not solely. Does anyone have any ideas? Have any of you experienced any similar reactions in yourself,  to any characters? Ever found yourself in the minority group of lovers or haters? Ever pondered why that's the case? Or am I the only navel-gazer?
  
• I really need to purge myself of my zombie dread-fascination thing (not going to use love-hate because, eeeeuuuw.) I can't stop myself from looking at pictures of zombies, or reading stories about them (I should never, ever, ever have read "World War Z",) even though I can't watch most zombie movies, and even the ones I can sort of watch (Sean of the Dead's the only one, come to think of it) I have to leave the room for minutes and scenes at a time. And I repeatedly have unpleasant dreams in which zombies figure. Last night, for example, I was somehow in a television comedy featuring the actress who plays in the comedy about a parks and recreation department, and the whole idea of the show was that she was a zombie who found her zombiness, rotting physique and all,  empowering (cue laugh track), but I kept running away or trying to leave the building where she was, because I knew that any moment now, she''d turn into a real zombie, a mindless one. Who wanted to eat me. This has got to stop. Dead things that move ... dead things that want to eat me ... dead things whose arms fall off ... yeah, gotta purge that shit.
  
• I apparently no longer like potato chips. My husband, he of the great potato love, is looking at me sideways.
  
• First Born is apparently going to be traveling to Ireland soon (cue Roches tune) with the girlfriend and her family. It will be a great experience. So will the debt into which the trip will undoubtedly plunge him, but I think the trip itself will outweigh that, if he's lucky.
  
• Could someone please be on the lookout for my muse? Failing that, could you be on the lookout for the Energy Fairy? I could do with a visit from one or the other.
  

Comments

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I realize that, if there's a female character that large numbers of fans don't like (Gwen Cooper, River Song), I'm very apt to like them.

Yup. Same goes for me. I actually do think it has something to do with the characters themselves, who are generally of a certain type. Fans have a lot of trouble with female characters who are sexual and aggressive, and who don't have any underlying self-esteem or insecurity issues to balance that out. I would argue that Gwen Cooper, River Song, and Sara Ellis (to name three) all have plenty of flaws, but they're not necessarily ones that fans identify with. It's strange, but I think a lot of the time we find it easier to identify with a character's weaknesses, rather than her strengths, and so when a character doesn't have the sort of weaknesses fans generally identify with, they are marginalized or outright vilified. I think the difference may be in how we (meaning here you and I and others who like these unpopular characters) go about identifying with them and possibly in how we view ourselves as well.

As for the male characters . . . yeah, I have no idea. I haven't spent nearly as much time thinking about it as I have about the female characters, because I don't spend half my time in fandom pissed off about how they're treated.

[ljgeoff.livejournal.com]

As for the male characters . . . yeah, I have no idea. I haven't spent nearly as much time thinking about it as I have about the female characters, because I don't spend half my time in fandom pissed off about how they're treated.

I was rewatching The Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang a couple of weeks ago, and realized that both Rory and Amy have now been duplicates, but where Amy got liquified, Rory got to be angsty and brave and live for two thousand years.

But what all this comes down to is that in our culture, and in most cultures today, the "average woman" is seen as less important than the "average man" -- we're the underclass, and a strong underclass character is threatening.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, season 5 was sort of Amy's season. She got to be angsty and brave for most of the season, so it was probably Rory's turn to have some time in the spotlight.

[kaffy_r]

See my reply to ljgeoff, above (or below, I always forget how these things nest.)

I think we as fans always have to remember that writers work on both a conscious and unconscious level, just like every creative artist — just like every human, come to think of it.

So the writer can say — and believe — that her or his decision to make a character do this, or be that, is a conscious artistic decision, and reflects nothing of her or his own life, or societal contexts. In doing so, she or he would be wrong and deliberately or accidentally ignoring the reality of how humans tick in relationship to the world around them.

However, fans and other observers and consumers of art sometimes insist that how a character is written is solely the result of unconscious biases on the creator's part, or only a reflection of societal role-modeling. They're wrong, too.

In short, I always try to remember that it's never either/or, it's always "and."

*gets off soap-box*

[kaffy_r]

I think you're right — the sad thing is that a strong underclass character is seen as threatening by members of the underclass. I know there's a term for it, but I can't recall it.

Your point about Rory and Amy is well-taken. However I'll play devil's advocate (blame debate team, really) and say that it's possible, at least on a conscious level (as opposed to the unconscious societal impulses that undoubtedly helped fuel the writing,) that the writer created Rory's 2,000 years of loving servitude because he wanted to subvert the traditional Companion image and role, raising the presentation to the level of parody by enlarging it.

Well, it's at least an interesting idea, right? Ahem.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

the sad thing is that a strong underclass character is seen as threatening by members of the underclass

Internalized oppression, I think is the term you're looking for.

Also, yes, I agree with you here: This is a rare moment in which a man waits for a woman. Very, very rare in any form of storytelling anywhere.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

As I said below to kaffyr, I interpret Rory's 2000 years differently. They are a rare moment in which a man waits for a woman. This is very, very rare in any form of (Western) storytelling. Very rare.

[canaana.livejournal.com]

That's because women are not actually women, women are failed men. Didn't you get the memo? The part of my local Walmart that sells maxi pads labels that section "female wellness." Because obviously, if you're bleeding you're unwell, so you need female wellness products.

[/rant]

[kaffy_r]

My keen reportorial acumen tells me you're indulging in sarcasm, with a side order of bitter. Allow me to join you. Sigh.

[kaffy_r]

I would argue that Gwen Cooper, River Song, and Sara Ellis (to name three) all have plenty of flaws, but they're not necessarily ones that fans identify with.

I'm inclined to agree when it comes to River and Sara (of whom I've become quite fond, over on White Collar)— although I'm not aware of identifying with their faults, or even thinking that they have faults, at least conscioiusly. (I've always thought that River, even back in SitL and FotD, exhibited a deep, underlying gentility and sadness, both of which made me fall for her, hard, but I don't see her other traits as faults.) I'm not sure what I think in terms of Gwen. She's a collection of insecurities and social miscues, who nonetheless struggles through to do the right thing, even when she's scared or clueless. The way she acts reminds me, in fact, of the way I've seen many fans (female or male) operate in RL. So I still can't pin down a pattern when it comes to her.

Still, I think your point is valid — that identification and self-identification issues help steer fans' reactions to characters.

As for the male characters . . . I haven't spent nearly as much time thinking about it as I have about the female characters, because I don't spend half my time in fandom pissed off about how they're treated.

I'm less apt to notice how my likes and dislikes play in the male world. Interestingly, (or not) I think it may have to do with two things: male characters who leave me luke-warm tend to be played by actors I think aren't doing a very good job in the role, whether or not they might be fabulous elsewhere. More oddly, if they become noticeably identified as romantic by other fans (as Ianto and Ten do,) I start judging them with my own physical and romantic standards. (Hush, I know it's superficial and insulting to the actor/character. Can't help it.) Neither Ianto/David-Lloyd or Ten/Tennant, for example ring those particular bells for me.

Having my consciousness raised, being pissed off about the treatment of female characters, is something for which I actually credit fandom. I'm learning, at my advanced old age, to see patterns that I don't necessarily like, and having to balance out what I see and dislike with what I love about shows. Uncomfortable, but necessary growth, I think.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

Quite honesty, I don't know Gwen very well. From what I do know, you're probably right - she doesn't fit in with River and Sara. But I think the problem with Gwen might be much simpler: fans just didn't like that she gets in the way of Jack/Ianto. That isn't likely to change now that Ianto is dead and Gwen isn't, either. If they hadn't seen her as threatening to their 'ship (which is ridiculous, since Jack is perfectly capable of loving two people at the same time), they might've been fine with her.

Uncomfortable, but necessary growth, I think.

Yes on both the uncomfortable and the necessary. It's important to be able to recognize the things that suck about the stuff one loves. Interestingly (or, as you say, not), I have a harder time with this with Moffat than I ever did with Joss Whedon or Aaron Sorkin, my two other favorite TV writers of all time. Neither of them is perfect when it comes to issues of race, gender, and sexuality. Whedon talks a good game about both gender and sexuality, but he falls down pretty hard on occasion (and the cast of Buffy was whiter than white; Firefly was better, but I found it problematic that in a universe where Mandarin is one of the main trade languages, there were no Asian cast members at all). Sorkin, meanwhile, has major gender issues and struggled visibly with writing any female character who wasn't "one of the boys"; he's also one of those writers who writes epic bromances but rarely any outright queer characters. He said in an interview once, when asked why there weren't any gay characters on West Wing: "How do you know there aren't? These people are in professional politics, which is a tough place to be out." True, and an interesting answer, but rather like JKR declaring that Dumbledore was gay after the 7th book was already published. Too little, too late.

Anyway, my point is that I don't have any trouble seeing and admitting Whedon's faults, but I find myself defending Moffat far more staunchly than the man probably deserves. I think the divide in Who fandom has put me in the defensive and made me unwilling to "help" the Moffat-haters by critiquing him the way I usually would - which is unfortunate.

[bibliofile.livejournal.com]

How funny! I identify better with Gwen Cooper and River Song and even Amy Pond more than I do with most of the other characters in the modern Who. I like all three of them as much as I liked Donna, easily. (Rose mostly annoyed the hell out of me.) Not sure if it's due to my age (late 40s) or being a second-wave feminist w/third-wave inclinations....

[kaffy_r]

It could be a combination of many things. Age could play into it, although I'm much older than you are, and I adored Rose as much as I adore River and Gwen, so go figure.

I'm not sure which wave I'm in, but I'm certainly caught in the undertow now. (Sorry, couldn't resist. Bad kaffyr, no cookie!)

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

Do you know where "Five Things Make a Post" comes from?

[kaffy_r]

Hmmm. No I don't, and googling it didn't give me a clue, either. Where did it come from?

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

I dunno, it was here before I was!

[maruad.livejournal.com]

I find that my body has no interest in many foods I once craved. I am often satisfied with a couple of chips (french fries) when I used to be able to eat a plate. The same holds for many types of fast food.

[kaffy_r]

I think you're right; as we age, our metabolisms change our cravings and our dislikes. After all, it happens on the other end of life: as kids we can despise things (in my case, I didn't like yogurt at all, but when I hit 17 and someone convinced me to have a tub of yogurt at college, I loved it. Same went for my switch from well-cooked to rare steak, which happened when I was about 19.)

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

I've liked rare steak since I first had one. When my family was at a restaurant and I ordered a rare steak, my father would say loudly, "Just walk the cow over the fire and bring it," which made me unhappy at first. Later, I figured he just looked stupid.

[viomisehunt.livejournal.com]

Ever found yourself in the minority group of lovers or haters?

Sounds familiar. One of the my favorite characters to write -- Ten-- was a character I loved to watch and yell at because David T. beautifully portrayed a man who was very much out of control and a bit of a jerk, but totally clueless to his behavior. He's easy to write.

It's probably a good thing you are not craving salt-- (Potato Chips) Wish I wasn't.

[kaffy_r]

Well, if you offered me something like blue cheese, which has a strong "salt" component in its overall flavor map, I'd be on that like whoah. But the unique combination of salt and starch that makes up a potato chip seems to have lost its charm.

Have you ever tried sticks of celery with salt lightly shaken onto them as a snack? I know it sounds all health-foody, but that used to help my salt craving when I was younger. No, seriously.

I understand what you mean about liking a character/actor both to watch and to yell at. I tend to yell at characters in situations where actors don't directly come into it; for instance, I'm an anime fan, and there are some (largely male) characters who I absolutely live and love to loath. BB's gotten used to me yelling imprecations at the screen when Byakuya comes on screen in Bleach, for example. God, I hate that man. Byakuya, not BB. Heh.

[bibliofile.livejournal.com]

If I liked celery enough to try that, I would, but alas. I've tried hard-boiled eggs as vehicles for salt, but they're still not as good as, say, smoked almonds.

For me, it's the potato + salt + fat that seems to do it for me (which meant that reading The End of Overeating was more depressing than illuminating). Not a big moldy-cheese fan, but a good cheddar has a nice salt component, too.

Mmmm, salt.

[canaana.livejournal.com]

I totally have the same thing with characters. Except for me, it seems to boil down to anything "normal," I'm likely to find uninteresting. There are exceptions to the rule (Rose, Donna--except that when you think about it, how normal is it that either of those characters would ever get to be a hero?). But mostly, as soon as everybody loves a character, I become disenchanted. Or when a relationship starts to look like any other relationship you see on television (Ianto, sorry, but I'm looking at you--I lost interest the moment you got jealous of Jack with the soldier in a bar), I'm no longer compelled by it.

[kaffy_r]

Once I like a character, the feeling doesn't change. I will get upset, sometimes, at how someone's being written, but that's from outside the story, not inside.

Do you ever wonder why the disenchantment comes, once others like the character?

[canaana.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with everybody else liking them. It's more that the predictability that is offputting to me seems to appeal to the majority of others. Sometimes I don't find out until afterwards that people love or hate a character, but almost every reason they site for their opinion is a reason I feel the opposite way.