Department of ... Uh ... Wow

[kaffy_r]

RTD, BBC?
(Plus Timeless Child Brilliance from masakochan )

So, yes, Russell T. Davies is coming back as Who's showrunner. My f'list immediately blew up, which, as eve11 mentioned meant folks were having Who-related discussions for the first time "in a jillion years", and I am happy with that as well. 

I love RTD for bringing Who back, for Rose (yes, folks I like don't like her. That's how these things often go.) But I personally found most of his run beyond the first season kind of gormless - it's hard to explain what I mean, so I'm going with that. And what he did to Donna? Do. Not. Get. Me. Started.

Ultimately, The Moff was my jam. I fell for him hard, and even harder for his Doctors, for River, for oh, so much. 

Still, beyond the "wut" reaction I'm still processing, I'm truly interested in what Rusty might have in the works for us. Could part of what he's planning include Jo Martin as the next Doctor, and a return of both Sacha Dhawan and Michelle Gomez, kthxbai?

And here's where I slightly switch topics; still Doctor Who, but concerning the "Timeless Child" turn of events that I found to be one of the only interesting things in Chibnall's short-but-still-too-long run.

I know that a metric ton of fans really hate it, and I understand that part of that is because they feel as if this means that the Doctor isn't a Timelord/Gallifreyan, and thereby invalidates everything we knew about the Doctor from the Doylist perspective, and what the Doctor knew about herself, from the Watsonian.

When I mentioned this in a comment over on elisi 's journal, I said I didn't mind it because I didn't see why we should trust what the Master said, and also because, if the Timelords worked that hard to make the Doctor believe she was a Timelord, they obviously wanted her to be one. I also said that Timelords could designate anyone they wanted as a colleague. All the preceding is Watsonian, obviously. 

I wasn't prepared for the lightbulb that the perspicacious masakochan  turned on above my head. I am absolutely gobsmacked by her brilliant take on this: 

 

"It adds a lot of serious layers when the main character is revealed to essentially be an immigrant that an entire society built itself off the back of, after stealing said immigrant's special ability."

In our current world, that resonates so damned hard for me. 

Thanks, my dear, for pointing this out!

ETA: Here are three links that masakochan sent me that look at what the Timeless Child disclosure suggests on both Watsonian and Doylist levels. I like the suggestion that the Doctor's tendency towards mind-wipes might hark back to what was done to her, but all of the commentary is invaluable and brilliant. 

As she put it:  

ichi
ni
san

Comments

[dewline]

Boom, lowered, right there.

masakochan is right to point that out.

[kaffy_r]

Yep - I'm actually going back to edit this and add three tumblr posts she hunted up for me that speak at even greater and more perceptive length about what the whole Timeless Child situation shows about the Doctor and Gallifrey/Timelords.

[eve11]

I liked Rose! I just don't want to see her again. And maybe soured more because of the metric ton of insipid Ten/Rose shippers out there. Not all shippers, mind you.

I'm worried that fandom is going to blow up no matter who RTD picks as the next Doctor. Some section will, anyhow.

That's an interesting thought about the Doctor's background. I'm afraid it still doesn't make me like the execution of the TC arc, but it's definitely food for thought. I do hope if he keeps it, that RTD figures out how to make this TC thing jell with prior canon a bit better.

I definitely preferred the Moff as well. Though I did really enjoy a lot of episodes from the RTD era. If anything, they weren't boring. And the Doctor *did some things*. Whitaker-Doctor has not had a lot of opportunity to do stuff, it feels like.

Also ETA: perfect icon! :D

[kaffy_r]

Yeah, I don't need to see Rose again, either. She's in Pete's universe and very happy. Go, Rose!

metric ton of insipid Ten/Rose shippers out there. Not all shippers, mind you.

Seconded so hard. I mean, I'm a Nine/Rose shipper (and also a 9/Rose/Jack shipper), so I have nothing against shipping, but it was so hard to avoid the tsunami of 10//Rose stuff, so much of which was meh at best and painfully bad at worst ....

There are some amazing RTD-era episodes, but in between those episodes there were so many things that left me not even cold, but luke warm.

Whitaker-Doctor has not had a lot of opportunity to do stuff, it feels like.

Agreed. I wish someone could convince Jodie to stay on (and RTD to agree to it, of course), because I think he might do much better things for her.

And I was so glad I had that icon; today's news needed it.

[masakochan]

Here's to hoping RTD can get Jodie back for the 60th. *crosses fingers*

[kaffy_r]

Agreed. It's probably a lot more possible than getting Jodie to stay on for another series.

[owlboy]

yeah there was a bunch of good meta about both colonialism and child abuse trauma that came out of that timeless child thing which is why i didn't hate it

[kaffy_r]

I missed all the meta, probably because I was ending my reporting career and dealing with a bumpy second part-time career in 2018-19-20. I need to go back and find more.

Another reason I didn't hate it was because I know how many times the fandom has been in turmoil over things: looms vs no looms, human mother vs no human mother, Rose vs anti-Rose, the missing or confusing Unit year(s) ... I mean, it could be argued that continuity is a bug, not a feature, in the Whoniverse.

[nostalgia]

I've seen that take around tumblr and it's an interesting one and it'd probably work for me more if they actually went with that angle. IDK if anything could make me like the Child being the Doctor though, it's very Do Not Want for me :(

[kaffy_r]

it's very Do Not Want for me

Yeah, there are always things in the Whoniverse that can make fans boil with frustration or anger; I have a few of them myself.

[nostalgia]

Ah well :(

[thisbluespirit]

I think there are interesting things they could potentially do with TC, but as it was, it broke so many things so unnecessarily on so many levels I can't even begin without going into an epic rant & am not going to - and it was badly executed as just a big infodump, even if you did like it!! I have eventually come around to being able to mostly ignore it and like the bits I like, but it broke so much I nearly stopped loving DW after all these years and I had no idea that was possible & I'm not going to ever like something that made me feel that way.

But it'll be interesting to see wht RTD does this time around. he's written some pretty brilliant TV in his absence, so hopefully he'll bring that back with him and be a little less AND NOW DALESK AND CYERBMEN FIIIIGHT!! YAY Y/Y??? And, oh God, I suppose he will bring Rose back for the anniversary, won't he? It would make sense, since that was where New Who started. But aargh. The Rose fans are still out there being annoying and don't need encouragement. :-/ (Not that that's a reason to do or not do something in the show. Heh.)

[kaffy_r]

it broke so many things so unnecessarily on so many levels I can't even begin without going into an epic rant & am not going to

...and I won't urge you to do that, since I know that my own rants just raise my blood pressure without changing anything. It would be interesting to hear some of your thoughts in a calmer way some day, or perhaps you've talked about it in previous posts of your own? I may have missed them, and I'd love to read them. That's particularly true because you have so much more knowledge of the Whoniverse than I do.

broke so much I nearly stopped loving DW after all these years and I had no idea that was possible

Oh, no! You should never have had to deal with that!

Evan as a Rose/9 and Rose/Jack/Nine shipper, I really don't want to see her again (Rose is happy in Pete's World, and let's not bother her, eh, and I'm not at all sure Billie Piper would agree to come back even if I wanted her to. Mind you, if Eccleston could be convinced to return, that would be cool.

AND NOW DALESK AND CYERBMEN FIIIIGHT!! YAY Y/Y???

*snort* Agreed!

[thisbluespirit]

or perhaps you've talked about it in previous posts of your own?

Not really, I didn't want to harsh people's squee by going on about it, but I'm not really interested in the Doctor's history pre-series. I understand why people are, of course, but for me, fundamentally it doesn't matter, because the other answer to the question "Doctor Who?" is the one we've seen played out before us for nearly 60 years, watching an unlikely exile grow into a hero, under the name that they chose, that was not their name before that. To me, that's the only answer to that question that really matters. I love that so much of DW, behind the scenes and in front of it is, as Three would have explained, serendipity. I think it says everything in the world you need to know about the show that it begins with ordinary people discovering all of time and space in a junkyard, hidden in a mundane object, and that they learn to become extraordinary because of their travels, as does the Doctor. I hate that CC has essentially broken that. I'm finding ways to live with it and mend it a bit in my head, because I do love this ridiculous old show - but the idea that the Doctor had been the Doctor before, the TARDIS had taken that 1960s police box before, that the Doctor is probably the most extraordinary being in the known universe, upon whose back the whole of Gallifrey is founded and that this didn't begin in a junkyard, that it just kicked hidden memories, an old personality back into action that something else would have done sooner or later is very hard to take, for me. I know that it was what broke a lot of my long-time flisters as well, some of them for good, so I've lost old friends as a result as well, or they've all but ceased posting and writing, and because of my chronic illness, this is the only real social life I have. (It is also, IMO, needlessly bleak in a way that I've bounced hard off before in some of CC's earlier work, but that's just a minor gripe in light of the rest.)

I'd resigned myself to the fact that one day New Who was bound to Go There in terms of the Doctor's origins, but I didn't think they'd mess with the on-screen ones, no matter if the Doctor turned out to be the Other, LOOOOOOMED, or just another Time Lord actually, he just likes being mysterious, he's really from Guildford, or had previous regenerations or were actually half-human on their mother side (and their mother was Leela) or whatever.

So, yeah, it's about my focus on the show, which isn't other people's, and I'll work this one out, the show will move on, it'll all be retconned six times over by the time we reach the 70th anniversary let alone the 100th, but personally, I am not okay with it yet. Being able to watch and enjoy the bits of the show I do love is huge progress on where I was this time last year, so I don't want anyone lecturing me on how great it is really. For me, it's not. It made me cry every time I thought about DW for 8 months straight, and 2020 was bad enough without that!

Here's to 2023? And I hope you enjoy the rest up till then very much anyway. ♥

[kaffy_r]

One of the things I'm grateful for in knowing you is how beautifully you write, whether it's fiction or commentary. But it's your friendship that I am most happy to have. I do not have to navigate the challenges you do, but much of my life is spent here, with friends I met online. I think watching those friends leave for any reason would make my life poorer. I am so sorry that what the show did in its last season hit those things so hard for you. I am, therefore, grateful that you have stayed around.

Thank you for taking the time to explain, and please forgive me for asking you to think about what's pretty difficult for you to think about.

And if there are any good things for you to enjoy about DW in the run up to 2023, I'd be happy to know it.

[thisbluespirit]

Heh, I have nowhere else to go! I dabble in tumblr and have met some nice people there, too, but it's never quite me. ♥

And don't worry, I wouldn't have typed that out if it had been too upsetting - I'm a year and more along and a little more resigned, but I think even if one day I find narrative ways to make it work for me, it'll be hard to ever dispel the subjective reaction enough to truly enjoy it. I know when you ask things like that, you do really mean it, which I appreciate!

And if there are any good things for you to enjoy about DW in the run up to 2023, I'd be happy to know it.

Well, Sacha Dhawan is great, and I liked "The Ghosts of the Punjab" a lot. I did like several eps of S2 until the finale rather spoiled them retrospectively. And I own a fast-forward button for watching just the highlights of CC eps. XD

[kaffy_r]

it'll be hard to ever dispel the subjective reaction enough to truly enjoy it.

I remember reading someone on my f'list talking about something that had really hurt their love of a fandom (don't think it was DW), and they said "Only in fanfic can one hope to salve those hurts". I think that can work, albeit not always.

And Sacha Dhawan is indeed great, as was "The Ghosts of the Punjab."

[promethia_tenk]

My f'list immediately blew up, which, as eve11 mentioned meant folks were having Who-related discussions for the first time "in a jillion years", and I am happy with that as well.
Oh this, so much this. *weeps for joy*

[nostalgia]

ITS AMAZING

[kaffy_r]

AMAZINGLY SO.

[kaffy_r]

inorite? I'm jumping around my f'list, reading reactions, and going over to YouTube to hear what folks I like thin of all this, and I'm just loving the ongoing discussions. Which are, I'm a bit surprised to see (albeit happily so), are far less toxic than I'd feared. At least in the corners of Who fandom I tend to hang out in.

[kaffy_r]

Oh this, so much this. *weeps for joy*

I, too, am decorously wiping tears from my fannish face.

[beccadg]

I hate both the RTD news and the Timeless Child. I haven't gotten over how outraged I feel by the Timeless Child to even enjoy Classic Who, much less the bits of New Who I like. I can't imagine RTD helping.

[kaffy_r]

I have my concerns as well, but time will tell us more, I suspect. I hope you can eventually enjoy more of Classic Who (I need to return to the Third Doctor's adventures, since I really love him, and I want to get more into the Seventh Doctor.)

[eve11]

Seven also has some really good Audio adventures from Big Finish!

[kaffy_r]

I keep saying this to myself; find some audio adventures. And yet I never seem to get around to them.

[beccadg]

I have my concerns as well, but time will tell us more, I suspect.

Thanks for sharing you have your concerns as well.

I hope you can eventually enjoy more of Classic Who...

Yeah, I knew it was bad when I was trying to watch some Four, Sarah Jane, and Harry on Pluto, but felt grumpy rather than happy doing it. They're my second favorite Team TARDIS after Four, Romana One, and K-9.

...I want to get more into the Seventh Doctor.

Seven is my baby brother's favorite. I hope you enjoy him.

[kaffy_r]

I've only seen the first two of Seven's stories, and I'm told he gets a good deal less silly and a good deal more serious; that's what intrigues me.

[beccadg]

...I'm told he gets a good deal less silly and a good deal more serious; that's what intrigues me.

It's true. Don't judge him based solely on the first two stories. He definitely gets a good deal less silly and a good deal more serious.

[kaffy_r]

I'm definitely not going to judge him based on those two; I am looking forward to further exploration!

[elisi]

Thank you for this post. I remember this from back when the ep first aired - as well as comparisons to The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas by Ursula K. Le Guin (which I have not read, but I got the basic gist).

All of which is very good, but we still don't know what they'll do with it all.

(My youngest turned 16 on Thursday and the whole weekend has been taken up with birthday things. It's all been very lovely, but I've not had the time/spoons to do anything else. I'll write up Thoughts at some point... next weekend maybe.)

[kaffy_r]

Thank you for this post.

It's really masakochan who made the lightbulb go off over my head, and she is the person who should be praised for finding and passing on to me the links I shared here. I'm just glad to highlight the idea.

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is an elegantly written piece that isn't that long, but which really ends up sticking in your head for a long, long time.

My youngest turned 16 on Thursday

Wait ... The Cherub? Sweet lord! Well, many good wishes to her!

(Not that that makes me feel old, no, not in the least.)

[elisi]

It's really masakochan who made the lightbulb go off over my head, and she is the person who should be praised for finding and passing on to me the links I shared here. I'm just glad to highlight the idea.
Well, thank you for highlighting. :)

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is an elegantly written piece that isn't that long, but which really ends up sticking in your head for a long, long time.
Yeah I've read a summary. Should really look it up...

Wait ... The Cherub? Sweet lord! Well, many good wishes to her!
Yup! And thank you. <3

(Not that that makes me feel old, no, not in the least.)
I am setting up a fandom dinosaur club.

[kaffy_r]

I am setting up a fandom dinosaur club.

Can I be a charter member?

[elisi]

Of course!

[kaffy_r]

A belated yay!

[a_phoenixdragon]

I am nail biting, as I still have not yet gotten through Jodie's second season, as every avenue to get it and SEE it has been naffed for me.

I am...not happy about Rusty. But it is his style and story that gets me. Not the guy himself. I'm willing to give him a chance, but I much preferred the oft-maligned Moff, myself.

*HUGS*

[kaffy_r]

Yeah, his style can be used to good effect, but if Moff can be criticized for his overly intricate plots, Rusty should face criticism for his campy, over the top finales. I have loved both, but it's easier for me to love Moff despite his weaknesses than it is for me to do the same thing for Uncle Rusty.

I hope you can find ways to see Jodie's second season. Still a lot of weaknesses, but not from her.

[a_phoenixdragon]

Ahh, you hit the nail on the head, really.

I hope so too! I really want to get caught up. Miss my DW, no matter who is running it, I always find something to enjoy.

*HUGS*

[kaffy_r]

*hugs you back*